How to Cover Politics with Tara Palmeri - The Assignment with Audie Cornish - Podcast on CNN Audio (2024)

Episode Transcript

You will not have an honest or authentic conversation with someone running for office unless they're not running for office anymore.

Unless they're checking out and about to write a book. Hello, Liz Cheney!

Yeah, exactly.

So, we listen to a lot of political podcasts around here. It's kind of part of the job. And one of our favorite shows is called "Somebody's Gotta Win," hosted by Tara Palmeri. Now, it's a collaboration between the sports and culture network, The Ringer and Puck News. And that's where Tara is a senior political correspondent. And her show is smart and funny. I always learn something when I listen. So I wanted to invite her here to The Assignment to compare notes on covering politics in 2023. Welcome to the program.

Thanks so much for having me. I've been a huge fan of your show, so it is a pleasure to be on.

Well, I'm excited to talk to you because I feel like I had the experience of covering political campaigns during these big periods of transition. Where you are in that moment, I think, can affect your view of politics. So where did you start? What was your first campaign?

Oh, my first campaign, I mean, I had a different trail through journalism. Actually, my first job was helping out CNN as a news assistant on Obama's inauguration 'cause I graduated in January a little earlier. I was a news assistant, and then I went to the New York Post and I covered a lot of local and national politics. But I did cover the 2012 campaign a little bit, the reelect for Obama. I was at the conventions, but I wasn't actually on the trail. I then went to Europe and I actually covered Brexit. I went on to be a White House reporter. I was a correspondent for ABC News. And then my path led me back to writing and politics.

'But I hear two things there, like you didn't - so, a traditional path of I work at a newspaper, I cover Washington beats, I get on the trail, I'm a "boy on the bus," I'm embedded with the campaign. I come to Washington, cover Congress like that, sort of, slow march was not your march, but I hear a path that is - was uniquely appropriate for the time we're in now. Right? Which is cable news, the New York Post, Politico.

Exactly.

Also, covering things like going from Obama to Brexit is also spanning a couple of interesting political movements. How do you think that shaped how you think about how to cover politics?

'Oh, I mean, listen, I was in Europe and I went to small towns in the U.K. like Doncaster. Probably no one's ever heard of it, but it used to be a labor town, which would be like the equivalent of being a like a blue district. And they had switched over to the Brexit movement, and it wasn't based on facts. It was really driven by this man, Nigel Farage, and he became almost a cult leader like Trump. I saw a woman who tattooed his face on her arm. It was a similar crowd to yeah, a lot of union type working class. There was just this like anti-immigration fever. I thought, Brexit's going to happen. I told people that. And it ultimately did happen very narrowly, but it did. I think it trained me for what was happening in the U.S. I also knew Donald Trump from when I was a reporter for The New York Post. I doubt you're surprised at all, right?

Were you working for Page Six?

Yeah, that was my first job at The New York Post. I worked for Richard Johnson, who pretty much was the first person to really write about Donald Trump in The New York Post.

'Again, it's like, is such a sign of our political moment where this - your first brush with this candidate, with this former president is on the gossip pages of a tabloid.

'Exactly. I mean, he loved being in The New York Post. We called him a "rent-a-quote," we would call him if someone died and we needed a quote about someone famous reflecting on that person. He would get on the phone immediately.

Wait, repeat that, you called him what?

'A "rent-a-quote," you know, the type of person you could call for any story, and they would give you a quote.

'See, people - but the people listening don't know this. And I do want to ask you more about this, because this gets at sourcing, right? There are certain people who are making the call to you.

Right, Exactly. There are. There are ton of them. But he would come to our parties that the New York Post, my boss would send me to his parties. He was around. He loved The New York Post. To him, he would rather be written about in Page Six probably than anywhere else, maybe the front page of The New York Times. But he knew his friends were reading it, and he was a fixture of the tabloids before he got the show The Apprentice. And he had this branding empire, you could say, or having his name on all these buildings. And so he loved that his his divorce to Ivana played out in The New York Post. He planted those stories. So, yes, I understood the Donald Trump media machine immediately when I showed up as a White House reporter.

So, let's talk about sourcing in your age of political journalism. Because as you said, you're not trapped on the bus with someone for hours having a whiskey, you know, that sort of thing. Like a lot of this, I assume, is DMs, texts, calls. It's kind of a floating campaign trail.

Right. I mean, I'll drop in from time to time for events in like various places, but for the most part, it happens over the phone. I'll go to, you know, the debates or I'll go to an event in New Hampshire, this and that, and I'll see the candidates in the flesh. But, yeah, I talk to the operatives, I talk to the donors, I talk to the consultants. I sometimes talk to the people closest to the candidates. Obviously, I'd love to have an on the record interview with the candidates. That doesn't really happen, especially with these GOP candidates.

'So who likes to talk in that big circle? Who are your - you know what I mean? And you don't need to say names.

It's the operatives and the consultants.

Who are the kinds of people who like to talk. And what are they trying to do when they're talking to you?

I mean, some people want to be on the record because they want to be seen as experts, right? On this race. And those are generally consultants that aren't associated with a specific campaign. And they want to be known as commentators, as experts, as people that can be the voice that they can get on shows like yours and that they can be on, you know, cable news and have authority. Others are, you know, honestly operatives and consultants and other campaigns that are trying to spin their story and also spin the story of other of the opposite competitive campaigns. This has been going on forever. I mean, the fact that I'm not on a bus with them is just it just means that I'm looking for different stories. I mean, there's a bit of a pack herd mentality around journalism, you know that. And especially if you're literally in the same space together. And I think there is something to be said about stepping away from that and looking from above or looking in different corners or in different ways, which I try to do at Puck.

How do you discern a source that's trying to manipulate you? Sort of how do you address that information?

Well, I assume they're all trying to manipulate me in some way. I think everybody has motivations, right?

That's what I don't miss about political journalism.

Yeah.

It's like everyone you're talking to, you're like, what do you want from me? What are you trying to implant in the air?

'I think even when I've done investigative reporting on important things like, you know, Jeffrey Epstein, there's a reason that the people want their story out there. They want justice. Like, some people want justice. And if they are trying to use me as the vessel to bring that justice by telling their stories, like that's - I don't - I wouldn't call it necessarily a manipulation, but like there's a motivation.

So, as you said, everyone is trying to deliver some kind of message. They have their own motivations.

Right.

'Can you outline - give me three motivations that are the most common?

'I mean, if you're working for a candidate, then you definitely want your candidate to win and you want to tank the candidate who is the threat. A lot of people ultimately want their candidate won because they want to be in the White House where they have the most power, prestige and - or at least if they're close to the White House, they have the ability to make money. Lots of money, as we know, in Washington. And I think, yeah, this is all about power, right? That's what everyone is motivated by. And the only way to get that power as to win.

There's my guy is great. There's that guy is terrible. And then what's the third sort of reason, you know, people will want to be in a story. You know what I mean? Be a source.

Oh, yeah. To elevate their profile. If they're, you know, if they want to be on the record talking as an expert, I think they use that to elevate their profile and to be seen as an expert on the issue or the race or to get their messaging out to donors, to supporters, to send messages to the candidates themselves. Sometimes the donors will go on the record because they want to tell the candidates like what they're unhappy with. Right.

Why wouldn't they just tell the candidate that?

Well, it's hard to get the candidate's ear. You might not be like the million dollar donor that gets the candidate on the phone. Right. Or you might be trying to convey something to, like the candidate's campaign team saying, like, listen, I don't like the direction you guys are going in. I'm going to write I'm going to tell Politico or whoever that we're unhappy. I mean, look at the DeSantis team, like constantly leaks coming out of DeSantis world. When you see leaks, to me, that means there are a lot of people who are unhappy with the direction of the campaign. And that could be people internally. And so they leak it out so that it's seen publicly so that that there's pressure to make a change, right? You're seeing donors leaking about their unhappiness with him, how they're going to maybe go to Ron DeSantis. So there's a lot of public messaging. When it's out there in the public, it's harder to ignore. I mean, when you make your point in private, people can ignore it. But when it's in the public, there's a real pressure. You have people on your shows, they have a point of view, and maybe they want to sell a book, right? They have they're motivated by something and they know that going on your show to your large listenership, they will have a better chance at selling their book. Become a bestseller, right?

Yeah. I think part of it is and I'm using out loud here. We often have this issue of trust in journalism and trust with political journalists. And sometimes I want to show people, what does it mean when you see a name in a story, right? Like, we don't just call them because they're smart. Sometimes we call them and they participate because they've got some motivations, like you said. One of them is I don't feel heard by my own campaign or I don't feel heard by the boss. And so I'm going to say out loud something that I could say to them. We had that experience maybe with David Axelrod last month talking about whether or not Joe Biden should decide whether it's wise to run again.

'But also, it made David Axelrod a fixture in the news media for about two weeks. I mean, he became relevant in Washington circles. And that's a really big deal. I mean, that's he's a media personality. For him to be relevant, to be on CNN, I'm sure he was booked on every show he was talked about in The New York Times. There was a story in Politico saying that Biden thinks he's a prick. All of a sudden everyone's like, wow, David Axelrod there - you know, that helps David Axelrod be booked on more TV shows, get more clients if he's doing political work or corporate work. And maybe he truly believes that Joe Biden should not be the nominee, which a lot of people believe. So it's a twofer. He's saying something provocative that he believes in and he's able to drive the message of the day.

I'm speaking with Tara Palmeri, host of the podcast Somebody's Got to Win. There's more after a break.

Welcome back. I'm speaking with Tara Palmeri, host of the podcast Somebody's Got to Win. She's also the senior political correspondent at Puck News. So your podcast has some pretty funny titles. And one that I loved recently is: "Is Ron DeSantis the New Peloton?" (laughs) And your guest was a lobbyist for Disney.

Yes. Which I pointed out at the top of the show.

Disney is his foe, right? But what was his name? Peter...

Peter Schorsch..

Peter Schorsch. Okay. I'm going to play a clip of him here. He is.

A point that I really want to get across as we kind of autopsy the last stages here is.

The last stages. Wow, Peter.

Well well, Ron DeSantis should not be still in this race. The only reason why he's still being allowed to stay in this race is because he moved money that he raised as governor into a super PAC.

$100 million, by the way.

Yeah. If he doesn't have that, you would be writing that "The Ron DeSantis campaign is broke. He should be getting out of the race." So he's got this artificial shelf life. Like, he shouldn't be on the stage right now. Now, the money plays, you know, like they say in Vegas. The money plays. It doesn't matter where he got it from or what he got on the river. He's able to stay in this race because of the money in the Super PAC. But if it wasn't for that, he would have been run out of the race by now.

I really love this clip because I learn something, right? I learn about this Super PAC and the sheer amount of money. I also love hearing an insider saying something like "the money plays."

Yeah.

It just the way people talk. Can you talk about a moment like this? Why do you think this is like an important kind of reporting for people to hear?

'Here's the thing. Peter's known DeSantis for a long time. So I think it's interesting. He's also in the swamp of Tallahassee, so he knows all the players around him. Yes, he is a lobbyist. Obviously, he is no fan of Ron DeSantis. You can tell from the start he says he's a, you know, lobbyist for Disney. Ron DeSantis is foe, but he's not wrong. I mean, the only reason that people stay in the race or - they can only stay in the race as long as they have money, right? As they say, when you can't pay for the jet fumes on the jet, your campaign dies. Ron DeSantis raised a ton of money to run for his reelection. I think it was like $100 million, maybe even more. And he put it in a PAC that they then moved over to the Super PAC, "Never Back Down." So he has this huge war chest. It's not his campaign money. It's, you know, a Super PAC.

So when you're sitting at home watching him on a debate stage and going, who's still giving money to Ron DeSantis? Like what's going on there?

Right. Because a lot of people would just have thought that he after seeing such a stark decline. I mean, that's the thing. He started even pulling ahead of Trump and now he's pulling behind Nikki Haley in third, fourth, some in some polls he's coming in second in Iowa.

'And even on endorsem*nts, right? I think you were talking about - you had Chris Sununu on your show. He's the governor of New Hampshire. He wouldn't tell you who he was going to endorse even though you tried really hard. I heard as an interviewer, you trying really hard. I'm from New England, so I know his endorsem*nt does mean something. And it sounds like it's going to Nikki Haley, right?

'Yeah, that's what the reporting says. CNN is reporting that, Washington Post, I got the feeling from talking to him that would be the case. He seemed to suggest that Ron DeSantis wasn't on the ground enough in New Hampshire. And if I'm sure, as you know, being from New England, it really pisses people off when they don't get their - they feel like they're not getting their due from the candidate. But Nikki Haley has run probably a stronger ground operation in New Hampshire, and she might be a better bet for the governor, even if she only comes in second. If there's one thing we know about politicians, they don't like to give away their endorsem*nts to people that ultimately lose makes them look weaker.

Do endorsem*nts still matter?

I don't know. I mean, that's I think you're right. It's hard to say if it really matters. I think The Washington Post had a poll showing that 80% said it would make no difference who Sununu endorsed. But, you know, he's got this brand name, Sununu. His father is a kind of a legend. The family has been a big New Hampshire political family. And if it helps her and she ends up being like the comeback kid or whatever, and she comes in second in New Hampshire and she wasn't that far behind Trump, she might be able to say she's like the comeback kid. If she doesn't come in second in Iowa or she really trails behind Trump in Iowa, New Hampshire voters tend to try to mix it up. Whoever Iowa picks, they like to pick someone different. So. And Ron DeSantis already has the endorsem*nt of Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds, but that didn't really seem to help his polling at all. I don't know. I think only time will tell if the Sununu endorsem*nt really has that much of an impact. But it's always good to get an endorsem*nt and there really isn't anyone else left on the table right now that could be useful in those early primary states. She just got the Americans for Prosperity endorsem*nt. That's the Koch brother network. So...

I love this answer because it sounds like the title of the pod where you're at. You're kind of like, I don't know, somebody is going to get it.

Yeah, it's really hard to say.

'Do you think that's, like, an Obama era thing? I feel like if you were covering politics from Obama-McCain, right? Like: hope, change, the country is changing, sunlight on the hill. And then it kind of from there goes to like: disinformation, American carnage, oh my God, here we are, these are the choices, you would have - then that would be reflected somehow in your attitude towards politics.

'Right. I'm just - I think we're all in a sort of world of bewilderment right now. Like...

'But you're - you almost sound like your position is: "Welp."

Welp. Like, do political endorsem*nts matter? I think it really reflects the state of our time where just people don't trust politicians anymore. They're tuned out, they're listening to their own type of media. They're not really interested in, like, the networks, the mainstream media anymore. Maybe they don't even know that Sununu endorsed. Maybe they're not even tuned in. Maybe they're just unhappy with the way things are going right now. Who knows if they're even going to come out and vote? There are 400,000 unaffiliated voters in New Hampshire. Who knows what the turnout is going to be like. That will be the difference for someone like Nikki Haley.

So, what does that mean for your job? Like, when you get up in the morning, what is your actual goal? Right? In the era of "Welp...politics?"

It's a good question. I'm trying to inform. I'm trying to let people hear different perspectives and make their own decisions. I'm trying to be honest and have like the conversations that maybe aren't necessarily polite and kind of let people "talk their book," but also push back on it because everybody has an agenda in this town, even the ones who claim they don't, they do. And I would like to have honest conversations. When people have a book, which most people do. You know, you have to try to steer that into an honest conversation, but also be up front. I don't know. I'm sure the same things that you motivate you.

Well, I literally kind of got out of the game a little bit because, you know, I talk to politicians or people who do that work and because they speak in talking points and it's almost like you will not have an honest or authentic conversation with someone running for office unless they're not running for office anymore.

Unless they're checking out in about to write a book. Hello, Liz Cheney!

'Yeah, exactly. But now you see what I mean? Like, to me, I made the work less fulfilling because it meant every - any kind of conversation I would have with this person. It's just shadowboxing. It's totally countering points that are predetermined for them, workshopped to death, comms'ed to death, and then we go back and forth in this performance for the audience to shape their point of view about how to see an issue. And it got to be kind of depressing.

'No, I think you're 1,000% right. And I think it also doesn't really make for the best conversation, frankly. It's not even really pleasant for the listener. I don't know that they come away feeling any more informed. I actually, like, listen - of course, I want to interview the presidential candidates and hopefully that will happen, although a lot of them have dropped out and will continue to. But sometimes I'm just like, this conversation, is it doing anything for like the dialogue, the public dialogue? A lot of politicians are just not going to be - they're just not going to be an honest...

No, no, that's true. Because they feel like they will be punished for doing it, that there is no political upside to conveying the most basic of information in an honest way. That's that's how it feels sometimes.

'Right. I mean, what's said on the record and what set off the record are totally different. That's why I just sometimes find it - I don't really go out of my way to try to get big bookings with politicians for that reason. Like, I'd just rather have people who are going to like talk about what they honestly see and believe. And yeah, they're probably going to be on their book, but they honestly believe their book and I'll challenge that. But I still. I don't know. It's a tough time. I mean, you - you've been in this game longer than me. A lot longer than me, especially this podcasting, radio format, but just shadowboxing, I just think is - is not a pleasant experience for the listener.

Yeah. Or anyone in it.

No. I think it just comes out of it annoyed and angry.

Exactly. All right. I don't. I don't want to make this a depressing conversation.

Oh yeah. Sorry.

So we're gonna do a quick lightning round before I let you go.

Yeah, let's do that. Ah, jeez, okay.

Trump's running mate. Who's it going to be? Because somebody's got to win.

Damn. Okay. Trump's running mate. I'm going to say Kristi Noem or another woman like that.

Interesting. Say just a bit more.

I think he realizes with the abortion issue, it's really turned off a lot of women. I don't know what Kristi Noem's position is, though, on abortion, but I just think he.

But that's kind of the point, right?

Right. I know.

Unknown, but a woman. Looks good standing next to you, has a lot to offer because they're a governor.

Right. But won't upstage you too much. I feel like some of these other women might upstage him too much. I feel like Nancy Mace is auditioning to be vice president, but...

The congresswoman, right?

Yeah, the congresswoman. But she's got a little bit too much, personality. You gotta remember that you are #2. So, Kristi Noem feels like she fits the bill in that case. But yeah, I could see that. I mean, people talk a lot about Tim Scott...

Wait, still lightning round.

Oh, yeah. Too lightning for me. Okay.

Biden.

Biden, running? Like, I don't know. Everyone keeps asking me, is he really running? I'm like, yes, he is really running. I'm sure you get the same questions all the time.

I do. I do.

All signs point to yes. There's there's no reason. I mean, he might be able to pull it out, but it's going to be a really tight race. So they got to get it together over there at that White House.

Next person to drop out on the Republican side.

Chris Christie.

Really?

Yeah.

I thought he was a fighter.

'He's a fighter. But like, first of all, there's a lot of pressure on him right now to drop out from his financial backers who are now becoming Nikki Haley backers. They want him to drop out and eventually endorse her and send his voters her way. Not sure it makes that big of a difference on the national scale because he has like 2% or something like that nationally. But in New Hampshire, he's got a pretty healthy percentage of the voting bloc because he's really focused his campaign - basically it's an all or nothing New Hampshire campaign like he's done before. I think he's up to at least ten points. And that could at least help Haley in New Hampshire, where, again, she could be the comeback kid coming in in second and and doing well or at least maintaining like a healthy lead above the others and not that far away from Trump. So, yeah, there's pressure on him to drop out. He might want to just stay until New Hampshire. You know, these politicians have really big egos, but I don't see any path for for Chris Christie. He's not going to win New Hampshire, not going to win South Carolina. Definitely not going to win Iowa. Sorry I skipped over that one. But they're like, Michigan?

Okay. Okay. Now you're just kicking dirt over it.

I don't know what else to say.

'Hey, I have been - I used to cover all the campaigns at like at the end, they'd be like, okay, John Edwards is making a final march through the South. You're on the bus, kid. And it was just like, Oh my God, this is depressing.

What was that like? I mean, what was it like to cover John Edwards?

It was people asking him if he had had an affair and him denying it over and over again. It was just that.

Gross.

Yeah. It sucked.

Gross.

And I was there for Hillary Clinton's kind of bitter end. That final speech I remember once going going on the McCain campaign briefly. And when I got there, the other reporters were like, okay, listen, kid. We're done asking him questions. Like, he talks all the time. So when we get to the huddle, shoot. Like, we're just going to let you go because we're literally sick of John McCain talking.

Oh, really?

Yeah, he needed a new ear.

It was because he was a big, chatty back of the bus guy.

But was that refreshing from being with a candidate who was literally hiding from you and you're asking about an affair?

'Yes, totally. I mean, that changed when Palin came on. That whole campaign flipped in in a massive way to a more defensive position. But that he's one of those guys you talk about, like not "rent-a-quote," but he like to talk.

Tara Palmeri is the host of "Somebody's Gotta Win." It's a podcast from The Ringer and Puck News. She's also the senior political correspondent at Puck. So you can read her daily political newsletter, which is called The Best and the Brightest. Tara, thanks so much.

Thank you for having me.

'That's it for today. The assignment is a production of CNN Audio. Now, this episode was produced by Dan Bloom. I want to thank our senior producer, Matt Martinez. Dan Dzula is our technical director and Steve Lickteig is executive producer of CNN Audio. Support to us comes from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks, as always to Katie Hinman. And we're going through our mailbag to find out what you want to cover. So please continue to send us assignments. The phone number is (202)854-8802. We're going to be answering some of those in an upcoming show. We'll be back with the new episode on Thursday. Thanks for listening. I'm Audie Cornish.